In our first episode of our Private School Guidance podcast, Director of Admissions Brad D'Arco interviews David McCauley, Director of Counseling, about the impact of the pandemic on the admission cycle for colleges this fall, deferring admission, and changes in the admission process and standardized testing due to the pandemic.
Episode 1 - College Counseling (Audio Only)
Brad: I guess the intent of these series of podcasts are to help parents and students navigate the educational landscape and the world during this pandemic. I'm amazed at some point that we're sitting here and we're not post pandemic. When this all happened last spring... And we'll talk a little bit about that. But did you ever think we'd be sitting here thinking about how this pandemic was going to impact this next college admissions cycle?
David: Yeah. Honestly, early on, with our plan to come back the 27th of April or something like that, I wondered if we'd hit that. Honestly, I thought that would work. I thought we would come back. But as it wore on... I'm still not sure when it's going to end to be perfectly honest with you.
When the adverse, or the effect, the dynamics that are making it more challenging, I still don't know when it's going to go.
Brad: Right. For the admission for this fall, so for students who are or who did enter college this fall, what was the largest impact of the pandemic on that admission cycle, in your opinion?
David: So students who were first-year students somewhere else right now, our last year senior group?
Brad: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I think the easiest one to point to is, "I never got to visit campus. I hope this is the school I expect to be," to be perfectly honest.
Brad: Yep.
David: Right.
Brad: So, they had some contact and connection maybe through the fall, but had not had a chance to really go through the thorough vetting of a campus visit, and to make an admission decision without the benefit of that information.
David: Exactly. It was the campus visit, the open house. Kids would go to admitted student open houses, all that stuff.
Brad: Yeah.
David: And yeah, there were students that had changed. There was one student that changed in particular, Anna changed from Connecticut College to Wheaton College in the final hour. And she just felt she got to know that school better, in the end, virtually, because students were not able to do those things. And parents. Get in the car and go visit the school. It just didn't happen.
Brad: How big, I guess in your opinion, or I'm sure these numbers are out there somewhere... But what's your sense of how many students waited a year? Either deferred admission or... And obviously anecdotally we can... But is that number significantly increased?
David: Good question. And there's not a single answer for that. I'll give you some of the outliers, the good liberal arts and sciences schools in Ohio had banner years. Those students, the students from Ohio and from that region, didn't want to come East.
Brad: So they stayed local?
David: They did. So you got Ohio Wesleyan, you've got Kenyon, you have Denison. Those schools did really well and yielded some big classes, especially Ohio Wesleyan. So there are those pockets of schools. Or you have veins across the landscape there. But then there are schools who came up short, very short, and didn't fill their class. And I'm hearing from them every week. "Don't miss the coffee with the counselor virtual event, this Friday at 9:00 AM," things like that. And-
Brad: Were they short primarily because... I'm presuming before the pandemic hit right there... It hit at a point where the applications largely would have been submitted. So it was more an issue of students, and families just feeling like without that knowledge, they weren't going to make a decision to enroll. Is that right?
David: Yeah. That distance from home, knowledge, and there's some students at different financial circumstances looking forward. And parents just didn't play that more conservatively.
Brad: So now into this fall, and I think, like you said, and certainly from my end, the idea that we're still managing or talking about, and obviously this is now the largest issue we're all dealing with that's in front of us. As that as a counselor, what are the changes that you're most focused on? And then I want to talk about what changes parents should be most focused on and students. But for you in your role, what are the changes as a result of this pandemic you're most focused on?
David: Yeah. That's the right question. That's a good question. For me, we just had a visit with Colby and Hamilton. Virtual visit. And the thing that I'm trying to emphasize most to students as a counselor, student facing is, "You need to show up guys, you need to demonstrate your interest. You need to be present." Because it's a guessing game. It's a real guessing game, especially considering so many schools have gone test-optional. So in speaking to the super selective schools, Brown, Penn, Northwestern, we're bracing for a huge, almost double cohort because so many more students can be applying to us now, since they don't have to send us their test scores.
Brad: Right, so students that would have maybe previously self-selected out of their applicant pool.
David: Exactly. Exactly.
Brad: Are now going to jump in at those selective schools because it's test optional.
David: It's test optional.
Brad: Yeah.
David: So in some schools, there'll be a huge influx of applications, volume may be twice as much as it would have been other years. But in other schools they're worried. We need to yield kids. We need to yield kids now. So you've got the full spectrum there, the full range, where they're trying... They've moved application deadlines up. Because they're worried about not having a big enough group to put a yield at full class.
Brad: But collectively, my understanding, individually colleges or universities, they wouldn't have the ability to change their early decision or early action programs. Or could they?
David: Yeah. They have.
Brad: Oh, they have?
David: The early actions.
Brad: Oh, really?
David: They have, yeah.
Brad: How so?
David: Some have moved them up into October deadlines.
Brad: Oh, wow.
David: Yeah. That's crazy.
Brad: Yeah.
David: You've got a Georgetown just a year ago... Because as you know, there's the flattening demographic and so many people have written about it, and you can read the flattening demographic of students are going on into college. The age has flattened and it's even going to reverse. Some authors will tell you it's going the other way and they'll be even fewer in five years or seven years. Georgetown bumped theirs from the 15th of November to the first November just last year. So there's a move to getting earlier. Wake Forest three years ago, went to a July 4th early decision.
Brad: Oh wow.
David: So right after a student had finished grade 11, they were applying. So there is some movement there to be, to be fair. And honestly we hope to move our kids in that direction too. They need to. It's just a sign of the times, it's symptomatic of where we are.
Brad: So one of the things you're seeing too... And I even from my role, right, I think potentially at the secondary school level, we're going to see this... But as the uncertainty of the number of applicants or the yield grows, that level of uncertainty grows, colleges asking or pushing students to not only apply earlier, but make an earlier commitment than maybe they ever have in the past. Is that right?
David: Absolutely.
Brad: Yeah. Interesting.
David: Yeah. They're going to work hard at trying to yield those kids. They really are. And that's everyone from top to bottom, considering the selectivity, the range of selectivity, the full continuum there.
Brad: So from the student's end, your point about like being present, I would imagine for students, without the on-campus visit... And I think we're all adjusting to what a meeting feels like when it's not face to face and in person. But for you, is that what your focus with the students you're working with of like, "Hey, these virtual visits are as important and they matter more and you got to find a way to demonstrate enthusiasm, maybe even more greatly than you have in the past."
David: Absolutely. It is. That's true. It's even more important this year than other years, because that's what colleges are using to gauge your interest. You can't be in an info session on a campus. You're not going to get the alumni interview for the schools that don't offer those general info sessions or an admission officer interview. The alumni for most parts... I don't know of a single school, that's still offering the alumni interview. May come, it may happen by January or so. Who knows? But absolutely demonstrating interest this year and being present carries a much, much greater value in the admissions process. You've pulled the standardized test score out of there. So that gets re-calibrated, they've rejiggered the machine there.
Brad: They're got to re-weight something. Right?
David: Yeah. So my sense is, yes, demonstrated interest will be... Even at the schools that say "We don't measure it," it's going to at least be looked at, for me.
Brad: I mean, almost all schools now are going to be test optional. Is that going to create more opportunities for students or is it going to make what was already a crazy competitive college admission process, even more competitive?
David: I think it will do both.
Brad: Interesting. Okay.
David: To be honest with you. I think it depends on the selectivity of the school, selectivity of the college or institution, university. I think for the most selective schools in the U.S. So let's say that top band, tier one and maybe the top of tier two, for those most selective schools, it's going to be harder.
Brad: It will be more competitive.
David: And for our students it'll be more competitive. But for the few of our students who do really well in class, do really well here, but don't test all that well, they'll be of a minority where they may be in a better position this year.
Brad: Some opportunities for that. but I think to your point, which is always hard with high school kids, of getting that point across of your interest now and demonstrating that and finding a way to demonstrate that virtually, is going to potentially be a difference maker in a way that it hasn't been in the past. That, I think, is a really interesting part. And I would imagine that if I'm a student at 17, 18 years old, that's in some ways, a lot of pressure.
David: It is. Absolutely.
Brad: Because you don't have the ability to go and visit six schools and tell the one you want. You're going to have to make a choice early.
David: Without a doubt. And what we're trying to do, I mentioned that we just had Colby and Hamilton Colleges in for a virtual visit. We had seven or eight students jumping in on that one. Good number. But they're now following up with virtual inquiry cards. They're keeping track of these kids. They want to have them in a database, because otherwise they may not get there. And what we're trying to do is bring in as many schools as possible to facilitate that for the kids in the end. We've got groups of four, we've got one offs. We had Clarkson University yesterday. We've got St. Lawrence next Monday all by itself. But we've got a collection of schools that would have come here anyway, and others that wouldn't have. So we're trying to facilitate that need to demonstrate interest. Absolutely. That's huge.
Brad: So with testing now being optional, and then we just ran one here and we had a number of our students, are you advising students it is still in their best interest to take the test and have the score, whether or not you use it? Or that they're best served by kind of focusing their energy on other things?
David: No, for students who... First we're offering the test prep from Brian Marohnic over in Middlebury, Vermont. We're offering that. And my best advice to students is, if you can take the test prep and take the test... And this was for seniors, just seniors for now. Take it, take it. The schools that are test optional now have always included the standardized test as part of the equation and how they admit you. If you do well enough, it only gives them another reason for you to be admitted. If you don't do well, we don't submit. But it's a missed opportunity for me, if the student feels that they're a good test taker or could be. In the end, I did this last night with Stephanie, we will have 69 of 75 students take the test this year.
Brad: Oh wow.
David: One test for seniors.
Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Which is pretty good. That was like 93%.
Brad: Yeah.
David: She did the figures there.
Brad: So yeah. I guess your point there is, there's no downside, right? If you take the test and you get a score that is going to be helpful to you, include it. But yeah, I think, because I know even for like my advisees and the students I'm working with that question has come up of like, "Well, if I don't have to submit a score, why would I take the test?" But I think yeah, your point of, "But there potentially is an opportunity for you to distinguish yourself if you can do well enough for it."
David: Absolutely. Brian Marohnic there in High-End Test Prep, we worked with Berkshire and that's how I met him. And I think Hotchkiss or Deerfield, something like that, shared him with us. And Brian, what I saw in my time there, Brian will take kids from a hundred to 150 points higher.
Brad: Wow.
David: Which, a 1400 is now a 1550 or something like that. Or the 1250 is now a 1400 or 1250 is a 1370. And that's good.
Brad: Yeah. So without the college testing component, and again, who knows how this all going to play out. What do you think... And you've done college admission before and been on the other end. As you said, they're going to have to recalibrate their scale. And where are they shifting that, the focus they used to apply towards testing? Where is that now going to be applied in the other parts of the application?
David: Good question again. I don't think there's a single answer there. I think there'll be schools that in the end will use this opportunity to become full on test-optional from here forward.
Brad: Just keep going with it. Yeah.
David: Yeah. Like Middlebury and Tufts, because they're now piloting a three-year program. All right. Or a three year pilot of being test-optional my sense is they probably won't go back and they will become test-optional at those schools. Yeah. At those schools, they will rejigger their machine. They will recalibrate how they make the decisions. To not even count on a test score. And they will expect the majority of their candidates to not submit anything. How will that be distributed? I think they'll give a lot more emphasis, like traditional test-optional admissions. Admissions reading. They'll give a lot more credence, a lot more weight on the caliber of the school, caliber of the course has taken, and the respective scores in those classes. That's where it will fall. There'll be probably greater credence given or greater emphasis to letters of rec as well, but caliber of school, class, and then respective score will dictate.
Brad: So do you think we ended up potentially in a situation, call it two, three years from now, where the value of what previously was the SAT or ACT score is shifted to AP scores, number of AP classes taken and results? So how much, if I'm on a 10th or 11th grader now, and you're guiding those students, are you saying, "Hey, you should be really focused on... For those most selective schools, the number of AP classes you're taking and your score on those exams is going to be weighted differently." Or that overall idea of like, "If you're in a competitive academic program like ours and you're taking the highest level courses you can and doing well, that's going to carry more weight than maybe it did three years ago."
David: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's always been that way at the traditional test-optional schools. A Wake Forest, or a Bowden, Bates, Bowden, and those that are test optional or even test flex to an extent. I think that's always the way it's been. I think that the number of schools who will read that way and made the decisions on that way, will it grow? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There are some schools that will only do this for one year and they will try to go back and insert, if circumstances allow, insert a standardized test in a decision. That I know of. I'm sure of that.
And those are the most selective schools in the U.S. As far as AP and it being an AP, I think what they'll look for, like what we're doing with the advanced STEM research, it'll be the level of the class. So even if it's not AP, let's say AP and viral versus something we may do with the Watershed Institute or that research that we're doing there. Well, the most competitive schools will look for the highest course, whether it's AP or something else. So it's all relative in the end. So, yeah. And that'll dictate. And it does now, but it carry more going forward.
Brad: Working with not only the students, but now when you're working with parents. So for the parents of current seniors, where should their focus be or how is it different than it was before the pandemic? How are they best helping their kids?
David: The parents?
Brad: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I had a conversation Friday night with the parent in Watertown, New York who asked that very question. And for me, I think, again, that there's shades of gray there, because there's not one answer. But for me, if I had to generalize, I would say, parents need to allow students to go through the process of identifying schools, finding schools, and then going through the process of discarding or becoming even more interested in the schools that they have initially, originally identified. And it's different this year because they're not sitting in the car and there's not dashboard time. And so there's not an action involved with that. They're not going somewhere. They're not seeing things. It's more of, "I just don't feel right about this one," or "This one just doesn't feel right." Or, "Yeah, I'm uncertain about this. So I'll apply regular here." And I think parents need to allow students to work through that in the same way, but it's a different process this year. And parents need to allow for that to happen in that way.
Brad: How for a parent, and this is for me now, even thinking about what we need to do here. With everything being virtual, how were they getting that information around the school that their son or daughter is? Because it used to be, they would go to campus and they would get a sense, maybe they're on the tour with their son or daughter. So they're meeting some of the students, and they're there talking to some people. But now, as you said, if the virtual events are largely set up between the admission officer at a school and aimed at the student, are parents participating in those? Because now I would imagine, how are they getting that same information to help assist in that decision?
David: Good question. And you may have just given me an idea, to be honest with you.
Brad: Good.
David: Because the truth is anytime during the fall, when all the colleges come through on their tours and pay a visit to us, it's students only. Or myself or other counselors and students.
Brad: And we're largely from our end, I'll say, secondary schools are doing... I don't know that we figured that piece out yet really well.
David: Okay. So for the day visit, that's a question. I think for both parents and colleges, admissions offices. Admissions offices, would you consider allowing a parent or two to sit in on this one? And for the parent, do you want to jump in end of the session? When I was in Beijing, parents used to come all the time. They would come when a college visit came through and be in the room where the college admission officer at a bunch of kids. So they were omnipresent.
Brad: But culturally we don't do that. Right?
David: No, we don't. So that is something I should ask because what we've done, we've created a couple of evening programs that allow for parents and expect parents to be participating and engaged, but the school visit, the day-to-day school visit, virtual school visit, we haven't thought of that yet. That's a good question.
Brad: Yeah. Because I'm sitting there and I'm imagining as a parent, as you said, that dashboard time we used to have driving away from the school to say, "Okay, this was my son or daughter's impression, this was mine." And we ultimately come to some type of an agreement of whether or not this is or is not the right fit. But now for the parent, you're right. Unless there is this mechanism for them to have some type of a virtual experience, it's going to be more challenging, I would imagine, for them to help in that decision-making process than it's ever been.
David: Absolutely. And I trust that colleges will still probably like you... Well, we'll still in the end of once the offers of admission are made, there will still be a chance for parents to now join them in a virtual event for admitted students or for whatever. But as far as the prospective time, when students are prospects still and still out searching for schools to identify those to which they'll apply, the parents removed at this point. But unless it's an evening program, like we talked about, like I just said, so that's a good thought, good question.
Brad: I guess last one or last couple of questions is, what guidance or advice are you providing to the current 10th grader or the current 11th grader? Because I would imagine it's one thing to try and provide advice around, "Okay. In the non pandemic situations that we'll be doing." We know, or we'll have a better sense, of what we're going to be doing through a pandemic, but we don't know what it's going to look like for those kids. So how are you helping to guide that group?
David: Yeah. Underclassmen, right?
Brad: Yeah.
David: 10th and 11th. Yeah. To be perfectly honest with you, 10th, I've not fielded many questions or phone calls, or have not entertained a lot of questions from students who are 10th graders or their parents. We are continuing to offer the standardized tests. The Pre-ACT is a one we'll do for 10th graders. We've taken it from the fall and planted it into the spring trimester, winter, spring trimester, one or the other, second or third. So the preparation is the same.
What they can anticipate, 18 months forward? I don't know. I really don't know. There'll be some semblance of what was always traditional admissions and applications, but how else that'll look, I couldn't guess. To be honest with you, I don't know. Good question again. I trust some schools who will come out well and look good with a virtual event. We'll continue to support those. And we'll build upon those. Others will want to get their prospects to campus. Their prospective students. So it'll be maybe a hybrid.
Brad: But I guess too. Yeah. The focus now, and I think you're probably right around a significant change in the potential emphasis on standardized testing broadly. You're right, maybe those most selective schools, I think for those students... Yeah. The emphasis now being probably on course selection, strength of curriculum and doing well in those classes is going to be more heavily weighed. Because I think you're right, and the number of schools that are test optional now, how many revert back? I would imagine it's going to be a minority, not the majority that revert back.
David: Yeah. We'll see. I don't know. It depends. I think what you said, the key phrase there is, those that are the most selective. I think those will hold on to it. You've got the NCA also. And then even for now, for a school that is test-optional like a Bowden, or when they read athletes, they're not test-optional they want to test score there. Even though there are test test-optional school.
Brad: Interesting.
David: So in some ways it's part of the twine. It's one of the braids, twine. It's there. So I think there'll be a move away from it, but I don't know if I would say as much as it being half of schools that have gone test-optional if they will remain. I don't know. It's interesting.
Brad: Yeah. It is interesting.
David: It's dynamic. Well, I'm excited to see how it's going to work out.
Brad: Yeah. Great. Well, this was great.
David: Okay.
Brad: Thank you.
David: All right. Thank you. Good questions.
Brad: Great.
David: Good questions.